Grade 4/5 heart murmur in puppy

[Emerate]

Hi everyone
We are new to this forum as we just brought home a gorgeous 9 week old Minature Schnauzer...Poochy. We adore her and the kids are so happy to finally have a pet after years of begging! Unfortunately we also discovered that she has a grade 4/5 heart murmur following a vet visit. We got her from a breeder who reported a vet check so I don't know how this wasn't picked up at this stage. As we are first time dog owners we simply didn't ask enough questions I suppose. We spoke with the breeder who in fairness has been reasonable and has said she will either give us money back (which was considerable) or give us a puppy from a different litter down the road. We are really conflicted. We want to keep her and we certainly can't take money back and not have a puppy (as this would be traumatic for our kids). The other option is to return her to the breeder (or negotiate a new rescue home who can take on the medical costs) and take the new puppy. We really would prefer not to do this, as it feels like giving away a child. So hence my question - does anyone know what would be possibly involved in this grade of murmur. When I google it sounds possibly serious and expensive. We could not take on huge medical costs for a dog at this stage in our lives. We have been advised to go to a specialist vet who will do bloods and heart check - we could maybe do this for an once off to see what we are dealing with - but wonder about costs thereafter in terms of medicine and/or surgery.
Any advice/thoughts/experience would greatly help our decision making. Feels like one that could be used in ethics dilemmas in university!!

Thanks

[zeta1454]

Hi Emma and welcome to the Forum

I am sorry to hear about your puppy's diagnosis and the difficult decision you are faced with.

Out of interest, was the previous vet check documented in that you have something in writing from the vet as regards what they did and their assessment at the time? It would be useful to be able to either see what they wrote or have the details of the vet in order to maybe speak to them about their assessment as it is odd a bad heart murmur was not picked up so recently. Maybe the breeder would be able to help with that - if I was the breeder I would want to understand how this was not identified before.

As I understand from reading online, there are a number of reasons for heart issues in puppies and it may not necessarily have been that you did not ask enough questions

I have no direct experience of a dog with a serious heart murmur although I know that dogs can live long and healthy lives with a minor murmur which would not even need medication. My initial thoughts would be to get a second opinion or at the least an independent specialist vet to be sure that there is no doubt about the diagnosis of a severe issue. Young puppies frequently do have a heart murmur which may correct of itself as they mature so you do want to be certain that this is a serious health problem in order to help make a decision.

I do have reservations regarding general vets diagnosis where puppies and breeding issues with dogs are concerned as some seem to have little or patchy knowledge and understanding in this area which may be reserved for specialist vets? Our vet practice which is a good one in many respects has raised doubts with us where their understanding of whelping and very young pups are concerned and one of their vets admitted to us she had never seen a normal birth of pups. We have also at other vets had diagnoses made that were clearly a means to get in more money through tests / referrals without sufficient need. I cannot make any judgement on your own situation as regards this but just to be aware that a second independent and knowledgeable opinion on any health issue of this kind is worthwhile to be sure that there has not been a misdiagnosis.

There is a link here with some further information and hopefully someone with experience of a serious heart issue in a puppy may be able to give more specific advice:

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/ ... rs-in-dogs

Just as an additional note, I would say that any serious health issue in a young puppy is almost certainly going to be on-going costly, is unlikely to be covered by insurance and may indicate that the puppy will have other health issues. I don't want to be negative about this but if ( and only if ) there really is a congenital/ hereditary or other serious heart defect, you may be better in the long run returning the puppy to the breeder and getting your money back or, if you are confident in the integrity of the breeder, a future puppy from them. It may be heartbreaking now but there is the possibility of heartbreak in the near future apart from the financial cost if the puppy really does have a serious heart problem....but do get this confirmed for sure before making your decision.

[Emerate]

Hi thanks very much for your response. Yes its a big dilemma alright. The longer we have her the more attached we get as well! I should have mentioned in the initial post that we actually did get a second opinion as well which confirmed the heart murmur and rated it similarly. She advised that we could now go to specialist vet for further assessment, but with 2 vet opinions there is no doubt that the murmur is a severe one. Thanks for the response. I am going to check out that link you added as well.

[Emerate]

Hi again
Thanks so much for that link. I've just read it and it is the most comprehensive but yet understandable explanation I have read up to now. Thanks for sharing

[Schnauzer Sam]

My first mini schnauzer, Molly, had a murmur that was picked up by my vet when I her examined at 8 weeks after picking her up from the breeder. I was told that this must have been missed by the breeder's vet when examined. I didn't fully believe that as the wee mite had a belly full of worms so all the claims made were taken with a pinch of salt. The murmur was rated as a 2/3 and we kept her. I know that when she was examined again at 6 months and 1 year, there was no sign of it and I then took her running with me on a 3 mile run every other day.

She lived until a few months short of her 16th birthday though the murmur did reappear when she was around 12 but no treatment was needed for it.

[Oscar 12345]

Oh goodness Emma, what an awful situation to find yourself in a what should be a wonderfully happy time. I would be a wreck with this decision. I do think you need specialist advice/prognosis, from what I know they can disappear with age as Sam has said. If the prognosis isn't good then I think the decision is probably made for you in your current circumstances. Good luck Emma and hoping you have the best of news.

[mikegoodson1]

My first mini schnauzer, Molly, had a murmur that was picked up by my vet when I her examined at 8 weeks after picking her up from the breeder. I was told that this must have been missed by the breeder's vet when examined. I didn't fully believe that as the wee mite had a belly full of worms so all the claims made were taken with a pinch of salt. The murmur was rated as a 2/3 and we kept her. I know that when she was examined again at 6 months and 1 year, there was no sign of it and I then took her running with me on a 3 mile run every other day.

She lived until a few months short of her 16th birthday though the murmur did reappear when she was around 12 but no treatment was needed for it.

Hi Sam,

My boy Oscar has just been diagnosed with a grade 3 heart murmur at 9.5 years old, we're arranging for him to have a heart scan so we can understand the depth of the problem but it's re-assuring to hear your story of Molly and that she lived a good life until she was 16. I know every situation is different but this makes me feel better.

Thank you
Mike