Chewy and I are progressing--I think

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Clown9644

Chewy and I are progressing--I think

Post by Clown9644 »

I have been reading the "Pigs Can Fly" and watching the Video "Puppy Culture" series as well. Unfortunately the main thing I have learned is that I am screwed. Both feel that Chewy, now nearing his 20 week birthday, is too old for me to have much success. They feel that the breeder sets the stage and unfortunately mine set a very poor one.
We are making headway on the House training and I think most accidents are my fault in missing/ignoring the signs Chewy is giving me. When I go into the living room and discover another pile I reflect back to 10 minutes before when he was bugging me and I thought he just wanted a petting so did that and he left.
He has also found that the skirting on my living room furniture is very nice to chew on. I have used 2 different types of deterrent sprays with no luck. Bitter apple was his favorite, he even licked the bottle after I had just sprayed things!
Biting is still ongoing but a bit easier to stop him.. He gets excited and turns into a biting machine, though it is in play. I have done the high pitched yelp, I have thumped him on the nose, I have held his mouth closed and I have put him down and offered a toy in place of my arm. Each of these methods is endorsed by one pro or another, and so far none have worked. I will keep trying and hope that he will outgrow this urge, which all of those same folks say he will. I am also into a regimen of caging around 2:30 in the afternoon for down time. He is not real happy about that move either but am told a tired puppy is a biting puppy not to be confused with an exercised puppy. We are doing play time, potty outside and then into the crate for a nap. Time will tell but people are really looking at my arms and wondering what I am doing to myself!
It is discouraging when you read and see in a video how you have nothing but an uphill battle because my puppy is so old. The video even went so far as to have a graphic depicting just how bad it is. I really wonder how Bear was so easy to train at 9 months. His breeder was strictly a kennel person and let the dogs into the house, 2 or 3 at a time when showing the pups she had for sale. Of course she showed the ones she was most eager to sell first and I had to go through to the 2nd batch to find Bear. Two mistakes in the house and Bear was ringing the bell to go out. Chewy will have nothing to do with bell training so far.
Enough rambling on for one night. Off to bed for me too as I missed my nap!
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Re: Chewy and I are progressing--I think

Post by Robin black mini »

Hi David, I think you could improve the situation with the following suggestions..
The book is a guide,but you are the helmsman...twenty weeks is still a clean slate...start with a new routine as chewy is definitely not satisfied at present.Garden play is not training him..it's a bit of an east fix for you,but dog is not getting any structure in his life.
At twenty weeks he should be going out on lead for a twenty minute walk( with rests and sniffing opportunities) .Chewy would come back tired and pooped out in all senses..the walks will really help structure your day and help you bond as you train him.
I also think your pup is being given too much freedom to potty where he wants...at five months this will definitely influence any future progress he makes in being clean indoors..you are setting him up to fail ..eg if he is left in the lounge and you come back to find poop it is your fault,not his.
The most important thing of all is please don't ever smack your pup.He will lose trust in you and become hand shy or even a biter if you continue to even tap his nose...I am hoping you used the word thump generically,so I'm not revisiting that.
If you do a morning walk he should get into a routine of pooing on that walk...mine will poo again later in the day on their afternoon walk.. Once you get this routine you are halfway there..you should find the biting will lessen as he will be a more relaxed pup.
Re the crate..I've never crated a dog..I use a safety gate on the kitchen for a pup I cannot supervise,but generally like to have a pad by my chair so pup has a place to go to rest,but close to me..more often than not she will hop onto my knee and we do have a rest in the afternoons which again is a lovely way to bond.
Re the chewing your furniture or skirting...get some pepperoncino ( powder) put it on a cloth with furniture polish and rub the areas at risk...the treated areas will auto correct the pup.Also have some good chew bones for the pup ..at five months his molar teeth are changing over to adult teeth and this will be his worst chewing phase.which could last for a couple of months. He should not be chewing you ,use your voice to say no,but never use physical correction....then offer his chew bone. Good luck.
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Re: Chewy and I are progressing--I think

Post by zeta1454 »

Hi David - please do not get discouraged by the Puppy Culture / Pigs Might Fly explanation of how critical the early weeks in a puppy's life are. Although the protocol was set up to guide and encourage breeders on the best way to raise puppies and explain to new owners the importance of building (or starting) effective training as soon as possible after getting their puppy, the guidance is definitely for all and it is not a lost cause to start with a puppy at a later stage.

https://shoppuppyculture.com/pages/is-p ... ure-for-me" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is not that you cannot effectively train a dog after the critical 12/16 weeks of age but just that it may take more time, patience etc. People are using these guides with rescue dogs and older dogs as well as puppies.

Although you say that Bear's breeder was a (more 'old fashioned' ?) kennel breeder, it is possible that she did have set routines and other ways of raising her pups to be more responsive to training than Chewy's breeder did. There is always temperament and genetics to take into account and different puppies even from the same litter may take longer to be effectively trained even with the benefit of a good start in life.

Often, as you say, accidents occur in house training because an owner misses the cue being given by their puppy. Much of the Jane Killion training is centred around communication between dog and owner and the need to give your puppy/dog the means to tell you they need to toilet, want to eat, are tired, frightened etc. and for you to be able to interpret the signals they are giving. It can be hard and tiring initially as you are finding but worth persevering :)

Routines are important as mentioned by Jo above - providing a structure so that Chewy knows what happens when and will learn to expect a walk, a play, a meal, toilet opportunity, bedtime....at a regular time. It does sound as though you are doing some of this already with the afternoon regime. All puppies, like little children, will protest at being put to bed for a rest, especially if they are overtired but almost always settle very soon if left quietly to rest. Re the crate, although we have always liked to use these and our dogs have too, much depends on whether Chewy is used to a crate generally, sees it as his safe place or den or, if he really does not feel comfortable with it. If the latter, you could try to do,as Jo suggested, and just give him a contained area to rest until he is through the biting stage and you know he will settle beside you without nipping.
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Clown9644

Re: Chewy and I are progressing--I think

Post by Clown9644 »

Thanks for the input. I do use a crate and Chewy will sometimes go into it for a nap all by himself. At night after we have ended the day, I do a quick email/posting in my office, get ready for bed, etc. I almost always find him already in his crate and I just close the door and latch it. For clarification I do not SMACK his nose, it was a very light tap and did not do anything. He just kept biting. I am NOT into corporal punishment though my father trained many dogs that adored him and was very physical. He is gone and so are his training styles. I searched a couple of dog webs for your pepperoncino and then googled the word to discover I need to go to a grocery store! I will be getting some as there is a terrific Italian store near by. I do give Chewy Chew sticks and he devours at least 2 a day. He will hide them and I will see him go off to someplace and come back with one. They are about the diameter of a pencil and 5 inches long. He loves them and is chewing mostly in the back of his mouth right now. By the way, saying NO is like gets no response at all.
I appreciate your help. I will post my new regimen after i respond to the other poster.
Clown9644

Re: Chewy and I are progressing--I think

Post by Clown9644 »

Thanks for sticking with me Leigh. I really am trying to do it right and I need to make some adjustments for sure. I had been letting him out into the yard/garden as it is a safe place and when we wake up it is almost an urgency that we go! I had not wanted him to have an accident while the old man got dressed enough to be in public. We had not walked much as I have not leash trained him yet but I guess pulling on the leash is better than nothing. I have to admit that a 73 year old man that has disabilities and lives alone may not be the best candidate for a puppy but we will accomplish this somehow. I will post my new regime so that everyone can offer corrections to what I understand to be correct.
Last edited by Clown9644 on 14 Apr 2018, 16:26, edited 1 time in total.
Clown9644

Re: Chewy and I are progressing--I think

Post by Clown9644 »

Thanks to Jo and Leigh for all the good information! I am still struggling at reading the book but due to a disability reading is very difficult, I only have one functional eye and it is only at about 60%. That's my problem, not Chewy's and will try to get more reading time in. I will be having 3 or more surgeries on the eyes to correct these issues later this summer. Not looking for sympathy just hoping you understand my side too.
I also must point out that Chewy and I made it into the 3rd CD and they are now offering things that are applicable for me. I would suggest to people that the 1st two are definitely for breeders and of little value to us older puppy owners but I am sure I gleaned some information from them. Yes I had read the Q & A information about older dogs etc. or I would not have bought the video. It is funny how Chewy very calmly sits in my lap for an hour or more in the mornings and we watched the video together, he even woofed at a couple of the German Shepherds but no others.
I am going to limit Chewy to the den and kitchen as these areas are easiest to clean and where I spend most of my time unless I am in the office like I am now, I just got him and he is just laying on the floor beside me. Should I attempt to keep him at my side as I go around the house?
I am gong to use the living room as our training area and he will always be with me when in there. We are going to review the "come" and "box exercise". He does get very excited when he sees the clicker and will come to me immediately if I click it, of course for his treat. I will do no more than 5 minutes of either with at least a 15 minute break and after an hour of training and free time we will get a rest break, but at 20 weeks he really is not interested in naps like he used to be. I am going to keep the crate in the bedroom as it is remote and quiet.
We will be taking walks. I did buy one of those training harnesses that go over the snout but am uncertain if I want to use it. At present he has a typical chest harness with the leash connection on his back. He can pull on it with no discomfort so will attempt to use the stop walking til he gives slack in the line method.
UPDATE He was whining a bit at the office door so we got dressed and went out in the cold rainy yard on a line, he struggled to go back inside but I kept telling him "go potty" so after we were both pretty soaked he PEED!! I made a big deal of it and we went inside to a bonanza of treats. We are both back in the office as I keep trying to finish this.
By the way the comment about "old fashioned breeder" was meant that she uses a kennel for all of her dogs. They use one room in the home for showing the dogs to prospective buyers and she had nothing to do with the choice. She admitted to bringing out the pups in the order she hoped they would go but I chose number 6 presented to me. The "modern breeders" to use the opposite term all appeared to raising the pups in their homes, even the video is in home for most of it. I meant nothing more than my observation and chose words to separate the 2 concepts.
Enough for now. I do so appreciate your inputs. Wish me luck.
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Re: Chewy and I are progressing--I think

Post by Robin black mini »

David..my little dog follows me round the house like my shadow...from 8 weeks on,I kid you not,she even made it up a flight of stairs on her second day here to be with me..
If I'm making a bed she is asked to move aside as I pull off bedding and she plays a game we like jumping around under the sheet when I make the bed..then I say that's enough and she jumps down and sits on the floor to wait for me to finish.Then ,we move onto another task..it's a training experience for them to understand you and follow your requests..if it can be fun so much the better.
If I take a bath,she lies on the bathroom floor and waits ..I praise her when I'm done..another wait/ stay excercise completed.
I am typing now,my girl is on her cushion she side of my armchair...she's tired from her walk,had her meal and happy to be close by.. So for me ,do include chewy in what you are doing and he will be happy to be part of your day.
You have the fortune ,like me ,to be in company with your pup ..id let him be with you and encourage him to follow the routine you want for him,and tell him he's a good boy when he's settled close to you at peace..
If your health issues make it difficult to walk chewy can you get someone to do this for you? If he misses the next stage in his development by not getting out on a lead etc you may find him having some serious issues re socializing in the next few months.
I don't like the skinny chew sticks..the dogs can get problems when they become gummy and break off...there are some good links about what others like to give the pups for chewing on..on puppy care section.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=23033&p=295411&hil ... py#p295411" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Clown9644

Re: Chewy and I are progressing--I think

Post by Clown9644 »

Hi again Jo, I was basically allowing Chewy to freely follow me around but it turned out he was freely going into another room and going potty. I was told I was allowing too much freedom! I noted that the sources for the various chews were all Europe oriented. I did a google search and could not find any comparable webs here in the states but will talk to my vet about where to get some bones. I noticed that Lamb seems to be the most favorite and the one source I did find only offered beef bones with no meat. I see that the video shows the trainer using meaty bones as well and she is a USA person. I will do much more research and find something else for him to chew.
Today Chewy has been saying how sorry he is for getting me so frustrated. He has spent about 3 hours total on my lap, napping or just giving me kisses and those wonderful black eye stares of his. He is even forgiving me for making him go out in 42 F wind and rain weather to go potty, but because he is so smart he has figured out a way around that. I have my gear and his leash in the garage which has a back door to the yard. We stepped into the garage and I was getting the leash ready and leaned down to snap it on his collar but he was a few feet away, taking care of business. Not much need to go out I guess. I know I can't allow that to continue but it did bring a smile to my face. We then did 5 minutes of training and he jumped back up into my lap and snoozed. I put him in his crate so I could check emails and he is sound asleep. Its hard to be frustrated when they are so sweet and lonving!
Clown9644

Re: Chewy and I are progressing--I think

Post by Clown9644 »

Today was a win and a loss so far. First it is freezing rain with a steady 15 mph with gusts to 25, downright nasty. I wake up and go to the bathroom, pull on my sweats and a flannel shirt and sox and then let Chewy out of his crate and we immediately go to the back door. I open it and he backs up 3 feet with the look saying "You are out of your mind if you think I am going out there" so I pick him up and help him out, gently. He pees on the deck rather quickly and that's ok. Comes back inside and we go into the kitchen, I turn on the Keurig and go into the den and turn on the tv, go back and brew my coffee. Meanwhile Chewy is sort of following me around. Get coffee and go to den and sit down and Chewy hops into my lap for our morning snuggle, I LOVE IT but then my nose picks up that smell :(( . Look over by my keyboard and there is a fresh deposit! X( I get up and clean that with him watching me, but no yelling etc as the books all say not to. I sit down and we resume in the chair. I start my morning and he returns to his crate for another nap. Very frustrating but the morning snuggles are priceless. Since the Toledo OH weather is supposed to be nearly 30 degrees colder than normal with lots of rain I am wondering if a litter box is the answer to our not doing well at house training.
Is he stubborn? I don't know. I have the Pigs book and the Puppy culture video. We did the click and treat and he really understands that! Moved on to the "framing" with the box top, he gets bored after a while as he has never offered anything but a look and maybe a sniff or 2 which I reward, but eventually he tires of it and goes about his business. The success is he is not play biting any more and will offer but I just say no and he licks instead.
I am open to ANY suggestions.
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Re: Chewy and I are progressing--I think

Post by Oscar 12345 »

David,

The only thing I would have done differently with that weather was put a leash on him and take him out until he poops. Pups will always need to go after getting up in the morning so it was a guarantee that a few mins after letting him in again there would be a present for you. A litter box will set you back in my opinion. Great news that the biting is reducing. Can't help you with the framing as I am not familiar with the puppy culture concept or process.
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Re: Chewy and I are progressing--I think

Post by zeta1454 »

I agree with Julie in the post above re the poop. Puppies will need to go first thing and, if the weather is really bad, you may need to keep a coat by the outside door for you to slip on quickly to keep you warm and dry while you go out with Chewy on leash until he does go.

Good to hear that the biting is easing off and hope this soon stops altogether! Great that he is responding to the clicker training too :)

Re the "framing" which I think is also called "shaping" and is a training technique that has been used for many years (and not only by Puppy Culture). It is a technique to encourage puppies (or older dogs) to offer a behaviour for reward and can be used to train all sorts of behaviours but does take time and patience, is not a quick fix for any deep seated issues and will take longer to see results in an older puppy or dog. There are more details on these links:

http://www.dogtrainingology.com/concept ... efinition/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://clickertraining.com/shaping-success" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issue ... 792-1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You need high quality treats initially to kick start the process - something Chewy really loves and does not usually get - tiny pieces of dried fish, cheese, chicken - you will know if there is something which he really wants and use this to motivate him. It does take time initially but once the idea of offering a behaviour for reward has "clicked" in his mind, it should progress much faster. Do keep sessions very short too - a minute or two at a time initially - but repeat regularly through the day. Once Chewy understands the process - offering behaviour for reward - you can increase the time but try to stop before he becomes completely bored! He will become more motivated once he does understand the behaviour/reward process and will begin to offer behaviours regularly - that is certainly our experience even going back to older dogs we have had that were not raised in Puppy Culture by the breeder.

Years ago, at a training class which we attended with one of our miniature schnauzers, the trainer had different class members try this method with each other rather than their dogs and it was a useful way of giving an idea of what it is like for the dog trying to understand what is expected from them without the benefit of a common language and how the prospect of a much wanted reward may motivate more serious attempts to work out what is wanted to get the reward.

Even when little progress seems to be made at any one session, overall the sessions are helping to build up the relationship between you and your dog. So if you get the best possible treats (really tiny pieces but smelly / tasty- anything Chewy would go wild to eat :p ), keep sessions very short but repeat often through the day and reward any movement at all initially. You should begin to see Chewy regularly offer the behaviour (e.g. sniffing the box) in order to get his reward. Once this is established, move on to only occasionally treating this to encourage him to offer more...it is slow but I am sure you will get there :)
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