Black&Silver or Salt&Pepper?

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Schnauzerluv
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Posts: 590
Joined: 21 May 2020, 21:31
First Name: Kat
Dog #1: Ozzy
is a: B/S Mini Dog
Born: 30 Jul 2020
Dog #2: Lily
is a: Black Mini Bitch
Born: 12 Aug 2022

Black&Silver or Salt&Pepper?

Post by Schnauzerluv »

Hi there! I am a schnauzer fanatic, I just love the breed so much! I had one growing up (the family pet) and when I got married we got two of our own. They brought joy to heart and happiness to day each and every day. They were the best things in my life.

We lost our 15YO girl 2 months ago :( I never knew it would be so hard, feels surreal actually that she's not here anymore. But after a lot of metal healing, we are finally ready to look for a puppy. We have to wait for one to be born because puppies are flying out like crazy due to the pandemic.

We put down a deposit for a black and silver male hopefully. The breeders said they expect at least one B&S. Mom is B&S and this is her 1st litter at 3 years old. Dad is black and has produced all three colours.

So this is a picture of the mom
Image

I'm confused though about the fading in schnauzers. She looks like a salt and pepper to me, but what do I know? Dad is a nice dark black.

We wanted a different color this time so it wasn't the same as our other two S&Ps. But the mom is almost lighter than my Chelsea was at 3YO. Chelsea was a dark S&P, but i'm wondering if anyone can tell me if this schnauzer is in fact black & silver?

Also is there a good chance any B&S pups will turn out charcoal grey instead of black like mom? Should we steer toward black like dad?

Also I realize i'll want to see how the puppies are with suckling and healthy, but since they are not yet born, i'm just asking about color and what would be the best thing for us to look at.

Both parents have been stripped, not clippered. Although mum might be clippered now because she didn't work at the shows.

Please ask if you need any more info. I'm only learning about schnauzer genetics and don't know much!
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zeta1454
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First Name: Leigh
Dog #1: Magic
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 20 Apr 2010
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is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 15 Mar 2012
Dog #3: Pip
Born: 21 Feb 2014
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
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Re: Black&Silver or Salt&Pepper?

Post by zeta1454 »

Welcome to the Forum, Kat :)

Do have a browse through some of the topics on the Forum re breeding and coat colours but I will post some specific information for you later in answer to your questions and I am sure other members will also be able to help.
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


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User avatar
zeta1454
Moderator
Posts: 5136
Joined: 19 May 2011, 16:58
First Name: Leigh
Dog #1: Magic
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 20 Apr 2010
Dog #2: Trilby
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 15 Mar 2012
Dog #3: Pip
Born: 21 Feb 2014
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Location: North Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Black&Silver or Salt&Pepper?

Post by zeta1454 »

Sorry to hear of the loss of your mini girl - 15 years is a good age but it hurts so much when they go however long a life they have enjoyed with you.

Regarding your questions about colour, the photo of Mum does look like a dark S&P to me too. Really if you are looking for black & silver, the true colour will only come from a mating of 2 black & silver dogs with a pedigree of black & silver. The gene for this colour can be carried by dogs who are S&P as we found out with our very first mini schnauzer litter with both parents being S&P but two of the four pups being black & silver. The gene was there on both sides of the pedigree - a subsequent litter was all S&P. The colour though may not be as true long term if the parents are not both black & silver and may fade over time. Black & Silver and Black miniature schnauzers also often lose the black colouring if they are not hand stripped and that includes stripping the head and ears which is not generally done on a S&P.

Clipping the coat removes the topcoat and reveals the undercoat colour which may be much lighter in S&P, B&S and black miniature schnauzers so you often see silvery white minis that were S&P or charcoal / reddish brown minis that were black or B&S. If you want to retain the deep colours of black, it will mean hand stripping your puppy / dog long term.

The puppies when born are pretty much all black, whether they are going to be S&P or B&S but the distinctive difference at this stage is the ears which will be solid black all over in a B&S and have some paler / brownish hairs in a S&P puppy. The 'charcoal' colouring you mention will be something that develops in the adult dog depending if they are clipped or stripped. Stripped dogs of each of the colours can end up with a monochrome colour jacket whether dark or light as the distinctive barred colour of the S&P is lost also by clipping. I think that the Mum in your photo may be clipped which could explain the lighter colouring, if she is B&S.

Personally speaking, if you are absolutely set on a different colour from your previous minis, I would look for a breeder of blacks or B&S who specialise in the specific colour as any mixed colour breeding is risking the coat developing differently from what you expect. If the colour is just a preference but not that important then of course it will not matter and really every dog has their own distinct personality and temperament that make them unlike any previous one whatever the colour :)
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


https://m.facebook.com/pages/category/C ... 916994967/
User avatar
Schnauzerluv
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Posts: 590
Joined: 21 May 2020, 21:31
First Name: Kat
Dog #1: Ozzy
is a: B/S Mini Dog
Born: 30 Jul 2020
Dog #2: Lily
is a: Black Mini Bitch
Born: 12 Aug 2022

Re: Black&Silver or Salt&Pepper?

Post by Schnauzerluv »

I was browsing through the forum and found my old thread. Thought I might update.

Your info was great Leigh! We ended up going with a breeder of all 3 colors, but she has a lot of black schnauzers in her line. We got our pup Ozzy, he is B/S, both his parents are black.

I have decided to hand strip Ozzy to help retain his black jacket and weatherproof coat. As he is maturing, I've noticed furnishings and any puppy fluff is a dark brown. So if I wasn't hand stripping, I'm convinced I would have a chocolate colored B/S. His brownish color doesn't bother me a bit, I love my Ozzy no matter what (just like you said I would) and pleased with his sweet personality. He is not the same as my other two, I get what you were saying.

Just so I understand what you were saying earlier, was it that if both parents were black, and not B/S, but they carried one gene for B/S, that the B/S pups wouldn't necessarily retain that harsh contrast? Because Ozzy's silver patches are quite silver (not pure white) and dark patches are turning chocolate? Which is fine, I'm just curious.
User avatar
zeta1454
Moderator
Posts: 5136
Joined: 19 May 2011, 16:58
First Name: Leigh
Dog #1: Magic
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 20 Apr 2010
Dog #2: Trilby
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 15 Mar 2012
Dog #3: Pip
Born: 21 Feb 2014
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Location: North Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Black&Silver or Salt&Pepper?

Post by zeta1454 »

Schnauzerluv wrote: 31 Mar 2021, 17:08 I was browsing through the forum and found my old thread. Thought I might update.

Your info was great Leigh! We ended up going with a breeder of all 3 colors, but she has a lot of black schnauzers in her line. We got our pup Ozzy, he is B/S, both his parents are black.

I have decided to hand strip Ozzy to help retain his black jacket and weatherproof coat. As he is maturing, I've noticed furnishings and any puppy fluff is a dark brown. So if I wasn't hand stripping, I'm convinced I would have a chocolate colored B/S. His brownish color doesn't bother me a bit, I love my Ozzy no matter what (just like you said I would) and pleased with his sweet personality. He is not the same as my other two, I get what you were saying.

Just so I understand what you were saying earlier, was it that if both parents were black, and not B/S, but they carried one gene for B/S, that the B/S pups wouldn't necessarily retain that harsh contrast? Because Ozzy's silver patches are quite silver (not pure white) and dark patches are turning chocolate? Which is fine, I'm just curious.

Coat colour genetics is complicated and often hard to unravel in terms of an individual dog. Black and silver colouring results from a ‘recessive gene’ which means that both parents need to carry this gene for there to be a chance that a black and silver puppy will result from the mating. If the parents are not themselves both black and silver (and also from lines of this colour) the colour in the puppies will not be as solid and distinctive over time. Schnauzer coats can vary in colour anyway throughout the lifetime of the dog and a variety of factors can affect this to some extent from age, diet, clipping or scissoring rather than stripping the coat, and exposure to strong sunlight. There is also a gene sometimes called a ‘fading’ or ‘greying’ gene which can result in coats of all colours losing the intensity of colour over time if the dog carries this gene.

As regards the puppy fluff, this is just that ‘- fluff’ which will not have the quality or colour of the adult jacket and does need to be stripped out. The undercoat in mini schnauzers can vary from solid black (which should be the same colour as the outer coat in all black minis) to silvery grey or even white so clippering can affect coat colour in older dogs by exposing the undercoat colour. You can sometimes see this on mini schnauzer furnishings too which will be scissored even on a handstripped dog.

This quote from a website on coat colour genetics ( http://www.katewerk.com/color/color2_pg1.html )

“Greying is present in a large number of breeds, and responsible for the lightening of Kerry Blue terriers as they age. The greying allele is almost certainly present in Miniature Schnauzers, and explains the lightening of overlays on salt&peppers, and fading of unstripped areas of blacks and black/silvers.

Note: When the hair follicle is stimulated through stripping, normal production of pigment is restored. The phenomenon also occurs when the skin of a greying dog is traumatized through surgery, vaccination or injury - the hair that regrows regains colour intensity and the area shows up as a spot in the grey
.”

And there is a link here regarding colour in black minis too:

https://www.miniature-schnauzer-austral ... schnauzer/
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


https://m.facebook.com/pages/category/C ... 916994967/
User avatar
Schnauzerluv
Member
Posts: 590
Joined: 21 May 2020, 21:31
First Name: Kat
Dog #1: Ozzy
is a: B/S Mini Dog
Born: 30 Jul 2020
Dog #2: Lily
is a: Black Mini Bitch
Born: 12 Aug 2022

Re: Black&Silver or Salt&Pepper?

Post by Schnauzerluv »

Thanks again Leigh, so yeah, Ozzy's undercoat is greyish. His furnishings and under belly are a chocolate color. The wire hair is always a shiny black though.

I do notice after a good carding session, the brownish color is diminished quite a lot. All makes sense 😉

My previous minis were P/S, but neither had much of a fading gene, so this is new to me. I noted Ozzy's mum had chocolate legs in the ring pics, so I was half expecting Ozzy's clippered hair to be so also. No problem, just a curiosity thing and to thank you for all the info you shared 😊
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