Assured Breeder Scheme

Information on finding your puppy, the Assured Breeders Scheme, the Kennel Club and issues relating to breeding your Schnauzer are dealt with in this section.
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Please do not discuss breeders or raise issues concerning breeders on the forum. This has created problems in the past and many breeders are not members and unable to defend any claim you may make.
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zeta1454
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Assured Breeder Scheme

Post by zeta1454 »

I know there has been a lengthy and at times heated discussion on breeding under a thread triggered by an enquiry from a pet dog owner about using his dog at stud. It has been interesting and informative to see different people's views and experiences. I thought I would just add some information here separately as comments of many kind have been made regarding Kennel Club registered breeders and the Kennel Club Assured Breeder Scheme. The Assured Breeder Scheme is different to a breeder who just registers puppies with the Kennel Club and does require certain commitments and responsibilities. While I would acknowledge that the ABS is still evolving and there may well be individual breeders on the list who do not conform to the requirements, those who do fall short can be removed from the list and if anyone is aware of a breeder clearly not adhering to the requirements they should let the Kennel Club know. Inspections are carried out by the KC and people have already been removed for not complying with the requirements. At present the following are the requirements for being a member of the scheme:

Assured Breeders must:

Ensure that all breeding stock is Kennel Club registered
Hand over the dog's registration certificate at time of sale if available, or forward it to the new owner as soon as possible
Explain any endorsements that might pertain and obtain written and signed confirmation from the new owner, at or before the date on which the dog is physically transferred, that the new owner is aware of the endorsement(s), regardless of whether or not the endorsed registration certificate is available
Follow Kennel Club policy regarding maximum age and number/frequency of litters
Permanently identify breeding stock by DNA profile, microchip, or tattoo
Make use of health screening schemes, relevant to their breed, on all breeding stock. These schemes include DNA testing, hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia and inherited eye conditions
Socialise the puppies and provide written advice, in the Puppy Sales Wallet, on continuation of socialisation, exercise and future training
Provide written advice, in the scheme Puppy Sales Wallet, on feeding and worming programmes
Provide a written record, in the Puppy Sales Wallet, on the immunisation measures taken
Provide reasonable post-sales telephone advice
Inform buyers of the requirements and the recommendations that apply to Kennel Club Assured Breeders as well as the existence of the complaints procedure
Draw up a contract of sale for each puppy and provide a copy in the Puppy Sales Wallet
Provide a list of breed specific traits and tendencies or any further breed specific advice or information that may enhance the puppy buyers understanding of the breed they are buying

and recommended is that:

breeders make sure that whelping facilities accord with good practice
The contract of sale should clearly lay out to the buyer the nature and details of any guarantee given (e.g. time limit) and/or any provisions for refund or return and replacement of puppy. If endorsements are being used the contract should also explain why these have been placed and under what circumstances they would be removed (if any). The contract should be signed and dated by both breeder and purchaser, showing that both have agreed to these terms
Commit to help, if necessary, with the re-homing of a dog, for whatever reason, throughout the dog's lifetime
Follow relevant breed health screening recommendations




Assured Breeders should provide a comprehensive information booklet to accompany each puppy sold covering information about the breed, grooming, exercise, health information etc. and a socialisation diary kept of activities done to stimulate puppies from birth onwards which is marked in the Puppy Socialisation Booklet to be given to the new owners. Puppies will be microchipped and, in the case of schnauzers, eye-screened by a BVA eye specialist. These are not always local to a breeder so can involve a long journey. I was at our nearest specialist vet (35 miles from where we live) and there were people there who had travelled twice that distance. Good breeders who are not part of the ABS may well be doing all the above but the reason for initiating the scheme was to enable those members of the public who may not feel confident to distinguish between breeders who breed responsibly and those who do not care for the welfare of their dogs to have somewhere to start from in their search for a well-cared for healthy puppy that would come to them with a wealth of information about the breed and on-going support for the lifetime of the dog to ensure that puppy is far less likely to end up suffering an inherited health condition, being used indiscriminately for breeding or abandoned at a shelter.
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

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Claire Farrington
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Re: Assured Breeder Scheme

Post by Claire Farrington »

Very interesting reading :-bd I think that just about answers things for me ;)
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Re: Assured Breeder Scheme

Post by BeeBee »

Thanks for posting this, it's interesting to see the details.

So much comes down to educating the puppy buying public. I hope the KC do put good efforts into making their scheme work and have real impact so it'll go some way to improving matters.
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Re: Assured Breeder Scheme

Post by BBG »

Maybe one of the mods could make this a sticky? Either here or in the puppy care/what to look for when getting a Schnauzer
stevenlisa
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Re: Assured Breeder Scheme

Post by stevenlisa »

These regulations go no where near enough. For example to breed a minature schnauzer the only health test you require is an eye screening and you dont even need to complete an annual booster. What would be better is that KC enforce full health checks on breeding dogs and the dogs used have a full medical history that again should be verified by the KC before they register the pups. That way if a dog that has had medical problems then it cannot have its litter registered

No checks are done on the dogs at any time by the KC, it is paperwork only. My view on the KC is they are just paper shufflers
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zeta1454
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Re: Assured Breeder Scheme

Post by zeta1454 »

stevenlisa wrote:These regulations go no where near enough. For example to breed a minature schnauzer the only health test you require is an eye screening and you dont even need to complete an annual booster. What would be better is that KC enforce full health checks on breeding dogs and the dogs used have a full medical history that again should be verified by the KC before they register the pups. That way if a dog that has had medical problems then it cannot have its litter registered

No checks are done on the dogs at any time by the KC, it is paperwork only. My view on the KC is they are just paper shufflers
The eye test is a particularly significant one for mini schnauzers as there were/are so many pups being indiscriminately bred with this specific hereditary health problem. The results of the test are published on the Kennel Club website and you can check results and dates of tests there if you have the full KC registered name of the dog - they are also published in the Breed Records Supplement. Annual eye testing after the age of one year is expected for any dog used for breeding.

However,if you want to stand out from the crowd in your breeding then there is certainly nothing to stop you having hip dysplasia tests and patella subluxation tests for example done on your pups and you can draw the attention of your buyers to this. You can also lobby through any breed club you are a member of for the tests to be made mandatory for members of the club who do undertake breeding. Maybe you are doing all this already?

For example, although it is not a Kennel Club requirement as yet, members of the Affenpinscher Club who breed (or even those with pets) are expected by the club to have the patella subluxation test done on their dogs and the results are published on the club website. The Kennel Club Assured Breeder Scheme may not be perfect and is still evolving but it does lay down the foundations for breeders and buyers of puppies to be aware of some of the requirements for responsible breeding and is at least a stepping stone in the right direction.

As for annual boosters (if you are talking about vaccination?) - they are an extremely controversial topic and I wouldn't even want to start with that one - even the vaccine manufacturers advise the parvo & distemper vaccines should not be given more often than 3 yearly.
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

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countrygirl
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Re: Assured Breeder Scheme

Post by countrygirl »

The KC has it's role but the puppy buying public need to take some responsibility in promoting good breeding practices and demanding the appropriate health checks for the breed. There is so much out there about what to look for when buying a puppy, just a quick google will give pages and pages yet there are still so many people who think, I don't want to show and just want a pet therefore I don't need to get an eye tested KC registered dog or go to a breed club member or KC assured breeder etc. None of those are guarantees but if that was every buyers starting point who wanted a pedigree puppy then there would be a lot more pressure for all good breeders to sign up to schemes like this (if they are well managed and checked) which would then highlight the uncrupulous breeders who couldn't get on the scheme.

Economics will always play a part and there will always be people who think 'why should I pay c£800 when I can get one off the internet for c£300'. Unfortunately, normal market economics are also not working as at the moment paying the top end does not signify quality. You can get an excellent puppy from a KC assured breeder or good reputable breeder for the same price as an unregistered, non eye-tested, perhaps poorly socialised puppy with no puppy pack of information etc, while there are uneducated people willing to pay regardless it will continue to happen.
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Re: Assured Breeder Scheme

Post by stevenlisa »

KC have certainly never checked us, only given them the appropriate paperwork & the 'FEE'

When we were looking for pups and asked to see all of their dogs health screening, in the majority the breeder only had the eye screen done. Their answer is that is all the KC require. You can breed a disease ridden mini as long as they have a clear eye screen and the general public know no different as that is all the KC stipulate is required.
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Re: Assured Breeder Scheme

Post by countrygirl »

What sort of health screening would you like to see as standard? Do you mean blood tests or a once over by a vet? I don't see why if a buyer has a reasonable request to see additional health screening that reputable breeders would not do it regardless of whether the KC mandated it or not.

I asked Widget's breeder if she would agree for him to have a specific blood test to measure liver function before I picked him up. We discussed it before I went to see her and the litter and she understood my reasoning for asking (I'd just lost my first puppy at 7 months old, long and sad story) and we talked through the fact there were no guarantees on future health etc which I understood. My thought at the time was that I could not have coped with another puppy becoming ill straight away. Mini Schnauzers are listed as one of the breeds where that particular condition is most prevalent so it was not an unreasonable request and I know some breeders of Yorkies, where it is most prevalent, do test litters as routine, even though they are not required to, in order give added assurance to their prospective buyers. I only knew it could be tested for because of my research for Rufus but I wouldn't necessarily advocate that all schnauzer breeders test their litters as it is still rare. Poor thing had to have blood taken from the jugular at 6 weeks old which was not a nice thing and had to wait a week for the results. I paid the c£25 fee.
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Re: Assured Breeder Scheme

Post by stevenlisa »

Breeders will only do in the main what is required by the kc. A dog should be health checked at least every 6 months in our view. If the parents of your dog had their full health record available. How many times it had visited the vets, what illnesses they have suffered etch etch. This would help you to make a decision on whether you would like a puppy from them. Health checks are very inexpensive in comparison to the profit being made on the puppy.

When our dogs go for eye screening, its test results are updated to the kc by the vet, not us. They could simply do this with any vet visit giving the kc a full health picture of all dogs used for breeding
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Re: Assured Breeder Scheme

Post by Caramomo »

I'm sorry but I fail to see the point in a 6 monthly once over by a General Practice Vet. Just a quick look in the ears, mouth and eyes, listen to the heart and lungs and then run their hands over the dog is a waste of time, especially when many of the vets (including one I have used) have no idea there are KC health schemes in place - I asked that vet who my nearest BVA eye panelist was for Cara's test and he just looked at me blankly, I had to educate him on a test run by an organisation of which he is a member.

As it stands at the moment vets are required to inform the KC if they carry out surgery that alters the conformation of the dog or is a c-section. Not one single UK vet I have used has ever asked for any KC/registration details of either of my two to enable them to make such reports if they would need to. If they don't know about those I can imagine the success, or lack of, that the KC will have if they implement reporting of the medical records of every single KC registered dog out there, that is of course after you have worked out the logistics of getting that information to the KC and then the KC working out out to process, file and use that information. Sometimes too much information is worse than not enough - after all if they have to sort through all that useless information on sprained muscles and swallowed stones on dogs that will never be bred from they are very likely to miss the fact that that dog has epilepsy or that one has an auto-immune disease so rendering the scheme a very big, very expensive, very time consuming logistical nightmare that most likely just won't work. They don't currently have the resources to update files to reflect if dogs have died so I can't see them ever having the resources to implement the kind of scheme you want, especially as you seem to want to increase the amount of information by requiring 6 monthly health checks.

And I also think that such a test would also be useless when in the past month my dogs have been seen by three different vets for their passports. The middle vet informed my OH that Cara has a grade 5 heart murmur. Now this is a strong murmur that could be heard without a stethoscope and is a stong indicator of serious ill-health, but I have never heard any noise from Cara's chest and she has never been affected by symptoms of heart disease, indeed she is as fit as a fiddle. My OH asked if it was a problem and the vet said NO! The vets on the other appointments before and after found no indication of heart murmurs, including the vet carrying out their pre-flight assessment and that's exactly the kind of thing he would have been looking for. I didn't find out until the girls got here as the OH believed the vet when she said it was OK and didn't think it was anything to worry about. Now I genuinely believe that what the vet meant was maybe a grade 1 or 2 but in all likelihood didn't hear a murmur at all as the vet afterwards would have been obliged to mention it on their report sheet for their flight, however to get the grade level in a murmur that wrong is quite serious and I wouldn't trust that vet to assess whether or not my dog was fit for breeding. By all means push for more specialist and informative tests such as hip dysplasia or patella's or liver function or other hereditary disease but a general vet check? Don't really see the point I'm afraid.
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Re: Assured Breeder Scheme

Post by BBG »

There are breeders out there that do more than the basic required by the ABS. It's a good basic starting point for puppy buyers. As is the KC health database. The problem is to educate the puppy buying public that these facilities and guidance exist.

Unfortunately most people 'just want a pet' and will take a chance on a 'sub-quality' puppy when they don't need to.

I'll never understand why people go to places like dogsRus (or Harrods) and buy a horrendously overpriced puppy farmed pug/Cockerpoo/yorkiepoo........£1500 for a 6 week Pug from a pet shop or £850 from a breeder that health tests breeding stock
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Re: Assured Breeder Scheme

Post by stevenlisa »

We are in the middle of looking for a gaurd dog, we were swaying between a giant schnauzer and a GSD, funny enough 1 of the breeders we spoke to stated, if you are only looking for a companion what does the dogs pedigree matter :-o
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Re: Assured Breeder Scheme

Post by BBG »

The pedigree doesn't matter, but the health and temprament of the breeding stock and how that puppy is raised does.
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Re: Assured Breeder Scheme

Post by Caramomo »

And all that can be found out from the pedigree!
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